I meant to write a long Blog entry about yesterday’s atrocity, and the subsequent media coverage, but I have to make a six-hour drive down to West Virginia tonight and bring my 86-year old Grandma back to visit for the holidays, so these brief musings I posted via social media will have to suffice.
What I said on Twitter: “Instead of reporting the news this morning, MSNBC and FOX are simply arguing Left & Right talking points, while CNN’s anchors report only how the story personally impacts them and despicably interviews little kids who survived the shooting.
This country faces major problems. Unfortunately, CNN, Fox News, and MSNBC are a big part of the problems. We need to have NON-PARTISAN, factual discussions. As a nation, we SHOULD be discussing guns, mental health issues, national debt, etc. But simply echoing what you heard from Limbaugh, Maddow, Hannity, Hayes, Morgan, etc is NOT a discussion.”
And what I said on my friend and fellow author Mark Morris’s Facebook page: “Roughly two years ago, someone tried to break into my home late at night. I live in a rural area, and it would have taken police a minimum of 10-15 minutes to respond. I warned the intruder that I was armed with a .357 revolver, and then displayed it. Upon seeing this, the intruder fled. I do not know what would have happened had I not had that means of defense, nor do I want to know. As a father, and a public figure, I have a right to defend my loved ones and myself. I am responsible. My firearms (as well as anything else I don’t want my toddler getting his hands on such as fireworks) are locked in a steel safe that requires both a numerical code and a key to get into. And yes, while that added a delay on the night I *needed* that firearm, you might also be surprised just how quickly I got that safe open and that revolver loaded.
Now, that being that, you’ll notice I said .357 revolver. I didn’t say Bushmaster .223 semi-automatic rifle (one of the guns used in yesterday’s school shooting). I don’t need a semi-automatic to defend my home and I don’t need it to go deer hunting. Nobody does. We have the right to defend our homes, our property, and most importantly, our loved ones. But we don’t need assault weapons to do that. A shotgun or a revolver in the hands of someone who has taught themselves to be safely proficient with it is just as effective at home defense as any automatic or semi-automatic weapon. Nor do we need assault weapons to defend ourselves from a tyrannical government (something else that is often trotted out). An assault weapon is not going to increase your odds against a drone.
There needs to be a factual, fair, NON-PARTISAN, and candid discussion about guns, gun culture, and gun violence in this country. Sadly, MSNBC, FOX News, CNN, talk radio pundits, lobbying groups, and politicians will not allow the American people to have that discussion, seeking instead to politicize it for their own gain. We are a nation that have regressed to rooting for political parties the way we would for football teams, forgoing logic and self-education, content instead to simply parrot the Left and Right talking points instead.
And until that stops, these atrocities will sadly continue to happen. And that is the most horrific and heartbreaking part of all.“
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(And again, I’ll be spending over 12 hours driving this weekend, so if your comment doesn’t appear immediately, it doesn’t mean I’m censoring you. It just means I’m not near a computer, and am instead enjoying my road trip with Grandma).
Great blog & Enjoy the time with your Grandma!
After work I turned on the tv and scanned the “news” channels for info on the shooting. After about 30 minutes I turned it off. Maybe should have watched the PBS Newshour?
Also, why in the hell would any parent allow their child to be interviewed about their experience during the shooting? A big WTF to that.
Great points, these events only seem to cause the US to regress when it’s a perfect opportunity to make progress. Agreed, we really seem to get lost in superficial details. I love that self defense story. Nice to hear when someone that knows what they’re doing uses a gun properly (especially when they don’t need to fire it).
As I understand the most current news on this matter, the rifle was left in the car. Below is a repost of what I posted on my Facebook page:
In my humble opinion after the recent gun violence in our nation concentrated in the school in Conn., there is one thing that needs to be done. Many of you probably assume that I am talking about Gun Control, but I am not. The news media reports that there has been too many shootings over a short period of time and they say it is because of assess to guns. I believe it boils down to more generally into mental illness.
Decades ago, many people with these mental deficiencies were placed in State run mental hospitals for treatment. Sometime in 20th century, instead of keeping mental patients contained, the doors basically opened up and they were thrust into society and were told to take their meds in which many never do. This I believe is one glaring oversight and the cause of so much violence in our world as of now.
I am not saying to bring back the shock treatments or the brain lobotomies, but if a patient isn’t taken care of the proper way, his or her illness will spill over into our communities as it has. Some of these killers may not be diagnosed with mental illness, even though it is routinely reported they had problems. Someone dropped the ball along the way.
Even if all of the guns were to disappear tomorrow from the world, violent mental cases could still kill you or me with some instrument that can be used as a deadly weapon. In the regard of regulating guns, okay, make it harder, but it will still happen.
Regardless of your views towards guns, in the USA it is an amendment written in a federal document that is our law of the land. Once something like that is taken away, when will they stop? Do you want the first amendment of Freedom of Speech taken away from you as well? How about the amendment that protects against search and seizure without a warrant? They need to regulate more than guns, but not outlaw them.
Brian, I just linked this on the HD-I website. If you want me to take it down for any reason, I’ll do so. But I want to thank you for saying what you said here. I don’t want much–I just want this world to be safe for my children and for others’ children.
Darrin: I totally agree — there needs to be greater access to mental health care in this country, and a greater understanding of mental illness, rather than stigma. (PS: The emergency responder logs say .223casings were found on the floor inside the school).
Jonathan: Of course! Thanks for linking.
For the record, the .223 rifle in question never left the back of Adam Lanza’s car. All the murders were committed by 2 handguns of unknown (at this time) caliber.
Does that fact change your position in anyway? Probably not, because a Bushmaster .223 looks black and scary.
However, my Ruger Mini-14 with a nice walnut stock and brushed stainless steel barrel is chambered in the same round and has magazines available in variety of capacities (5, 10, 20, 30). A nice little “varmint” gun.
Bullets are the same as that nasty assault rifle “Bushmaster”. The rate of fire the same (one bullet per trigger pull). Ammo capacity – the same.
Do you want that gun too? Because, short of confiscation — not sure what “gun control” laws were actually violated in this incident…well other than murdering the legal owner of the guns in question (his mother).
You are correct about tyrannical governments – as witnessed in Syria and Libya – we probably should get more military class weapons into the hands of private citizens and state militias. Their is a reason our founding fathers didn’t write the “right to keep and bear muskets”.
Gun control is not the answer. We as a country need to get help mentally with issues. The media is to blame for a lot of this with how they cover stories twist reality and jam stuff down your throat. True intelligent people turn of all the crap n go on with their lives. But with all this media coverage it will only promote copy cats it always happens. Then the media blast it and the gun control starts all over. It will in turn create a lynch mob in a way crying for gun control n more government control over us cause we the people don’t truly know how to act like adults orhuman beings.
Ron O’Neal: Actually, they’re saying now that empty .223 brass was indeed found inside the school.
I’m a gun owner and target shooting enthusiast, and (in the past) a hunter. I know my firearms. Don’t put words in my mouth, because what I wrote was very clear. I’m not talking about banning weapons that “look” scary (I’ve got a polished black 16-guage that looks as scary as post-plastic surgery Joan Rivers). Nor did I say that any “gun control laws” were violated in this case (indeed, CT’s gun laws are among the strictest in the country).
What I said was that it’s my opinion that we need to have a civil, non-partisan discussion about semi-automatic and automatic weapons and civilian access to them. We also need to talk about our approaches and treatments to mental illness, etc. Like I said, I’m a gun owner. But I’m also a father. There has got to be a non-partisan middle ground.
I question your knowledge of firearms, if you equate a semi-automatic rifle to an “assault weapon”. There is no functional difference between the Bushmaster .223 and a dozen other semi-automatic rifles (yet less black and evil looking) chambered in the same caliber.
What the does “civilian access” to semi-automatic and automatic weapons (illegal since 1934) mean? Spit it out.
And I pardon me if I’m not inclined to be “civil or non-partisan” about surrendering rights granted to CITIZENS in the constitution.
CT laws, in practice, aren’t all that strict. It’s a “may issue” state that operates like a “shall issue” state. This is partially because it is a New England state (MA is the outlier) and partially because it’s the traditional home of Colt.
I wanted to hear the news about what happened. I don’t know why, I just did. After 15 min, I was so angry that I had to remove myself from social media and from watching tv. Interviews with children, gun control, political views. I just wanted to know what happened, I don’t care what anyone thinks about what happened, I just wanted the facts. I am old enough to form my own opionion. I can’t stand the news media. They pounced on those children for interviews like a pack of hungry zombies then have the nerve to turn around and try to tell me what I need to think.
So many see guns as the problem. There were guns in homes for many years before things like this started to be the norm. Something has changed in this country.
People no longer have respect. Not for each other, not for life. It is only about winning the argument. Proving you are right and “they” are wrong. Political parties would rather see the country burn than lose the arguemnt. The news media only wanted to win the ratings war at all costs. If you look at what has changed in the last couple of decades, we have lost our ability to respect life, respect others, or even care about people. Not just the people you agree with but even the ones you don’t agree with. We are getting hate from every angle and to be honest, I don’t see an answer on how to make it better.
Rob O’Neal wrote: “I question your knowledge of firearms, if you equate a semi-automatic rifle to an “assault weapon”. ”
And I question your basic reading comprehension skills since is the second time in two posts that you’ve mischaracterized and misstated what I actually said. Which tells me you don’t want a conversation. You want to engage in the same Left and Right tactics mentioned above. Sorry. I’m not engaging in that sort of one-sided nonsense anymore.
Martin: Well said.
Rob I am a gun owner and I don’t want my gun taken away but when people like you start talking I seriously see the far lefts views a lot clearer.
I’m pretty fed up with people trotting out the Constitution argument every time this comes up.
– The Constitution was written at a time when the general populace had muskets and single-shot pistols that could only fire once before the firer underwent a minutes-long reloading process. Saying that the average human has the right to own assault rifles, etc. for home defense would be like telling George Washington every householder should be able to roll a cannon out the front door.
– The Founding Fathers knew damn well that the Constitution would require the occasional adjustment. They built a process for amending the Constituion INTO THE DAMN THING. For a reason.
– There have been 27 ratified amendments to the Constitution–including the much-vaunted Second the gun extremists toss around. They cover things like the voting age, women’s right to vote, the Prohibition of alcohol, the repealing of Prohibition, and the limiting of Presidents to two four-year terms. These are important parts of the American way of life–all of which were not covered in the original document, and were voted into existence by the People.
Changing the Constitution is acceptable, has plenty of precedent, and was intended by its authors, all of whom were a lot smarter that Mr. O’Neal (and probably a damn sight brighter than myself, in the bargain).
With what the world has become today, I think it’s time we make it mandatory that police/armed guards are stationed at every school during the school day. There is no way to completely prevent such tragedies from happening in the future. But it saddens me to think that this is what we have come to.
I agree with Martin. There were many deadly weapons available in the 70′s and 80′s, at a time that had less stringent gun laws in effect than today, yet there wasn’t this type of crime being committed then. When my father was 13 or 14 he brought his .22 rifle on the bus and rode to school with it, put it in his locker, and traded it in at a local hardware store during lunch period. There was not an eyebrow raised at this back then, (during the late 40′s). I’m not sure what’s happened in the last twenty years. Some may argue that guns are more prevalent, in culture, media, and society in general. That might be true, but they’d be hard pressed to show the facts that a glut of guns has an effect on someone’s mental stability. A trained soldier carrying an AR-15 in a school could tread through every classroom and not hurt a soul, he might even be greeted by the children with warmth and admiration. We’ve seen what a person with an unsound mind can do. Maybe we should consider instituting something to the effect of the former to deter the latter, by mere presence, or by sheer force.
Sorry Mr. Keen, but whether or not it should be, it is a partisan issue. On this one, you’re on the side of the general democratic belief that there should be “common sense” gun restrictions, there’s nothing wrong with holding that view, but sadly, in our culture, it’s a partisan viewpoint. I know you want to be above the fray, but you’re not, your opinion on this falls on a particular side of the fence, like it or not.
Rodney: I respect your opinion, brother, but I disagree. I know many registered, voting Democrats who believe the 2nd Amendment gives us the right to own rocket launchers, and many registered, voting Republicans (including one of my oldest buddies from my days in the military) that were pro Brady Bill. It’s not a partisan issue. Washington and the mainstream media want you to think it is, though. Which I said in my original post.
PS: it’s not my intent to come off as “above the fray”. I’ve always been pretty open about my beliefs. I’m an Agnostic and a Libertarian who leans to the left on social issues and to the right on fiscal issues. I don’t think that puts me above. I think that puts me right in the middle.
Good, honest, rational post Brian. I’m a teacher, we do lockdown drills once a year, and yet the flaws of the system are glaring. Anyone who wanted a high body count could get one with minimal effort. I certainly get the impulse to focus on guns, but most proposals would simply not have stopped this from happening.
In 1927 in Bath Mich. a man blew up an elementary school and killed 38 children and several adults. This isn’t talked about when the news brings up school disasters because no guns were used. I also know it was a long time ago but it proves the point that removing guns is not the ONLY answer. We as a society need to stop the news from constantly shoving this stuff in our face and giving these wacko the press they wanted.
I live in a town with a suicide bridge years go by with no one jumping but when 1 person does it several follow because it make the news
I also read in Internet the news of the tragedy,.. and I think it sad that they’re using it around to defend one political ideology or another.
Personally, I don’t think the problem is guns or mental illness. The problem is there are increasingly large sections of society where, as someone said, things are valued and people are used. People being unpersonalized. Most of us shrug off that and live our lives with the people we chose who are above that. Some few ones, most of the time psychopaths (people lacking any empathy) don’t… and there it comes a mass murder.
Personally, I lean to the left on social and fiscal issues, although I’ve been called anything from a commie (which I’m not, although I simpatize greatly with communism and try to learn from it) to a fascist (the latter because I oppose the Spanish equivalent of affirmative action or my strong defense of death penalty). Society tries to put you in one side of a fence… but humanity is much more complex than it. Which comes out very funny in my country, where both parties behave exactly equal and share 90% of their ideology.
There is a huge misunderstanding on what an “assault rifle” is and does. Using an AR-15 semiautomatic in .223 or .556 or any caliber is a legitimate hunting rifle, self defense rifle, or plinking gun.
a .223 is not much bigger than a .22 and a semiautomatic shoots one bullet at a time. It does not fire in bursts or fully automatic.
It looks cool, but it’s no more dangerous than the reasonable .357 in the illustration.
Guns are tools.
Brian, everything that you said in your P.S. to Rodney describes exactly my beliefs. “I’m an Agnostic and a Libertarian who leans to the left on social issues and to the right on fiscal issues. I don’t think that puts me above. I think that puts me right in the middle”. I guess what I’m afraid of is the same thing I’ve always been afraid of trying to discuss our right to bare arms. Even if the government did something drastic, like taking away our guns, would it change anything? Like you, I am also a father living in a VERY rural area and although I don’t lock my doors, I still want the chance to be able to defend both my family and property. I have a replica “old west” style 22 revolver and a New England single shot 20 gauge shotgun. Both are loaded always. My 16 year old daughter and my wife of 18 years both know how to use them but pretty much despise them. We live in crazy days though and if the off chance that the bad guys come to my house, it makes me feel better knowing we have a chance. The bottom line though, is right now we have that legal right to have these guns and use them. If we change or modify the laws, will it even help us law abiding citizens or will the bad guys just buy the same guns off the black market and do crazy shit anyway?
I agree with you point for point about gun control or lack there of. Simply put not everyone needs a gun, automatic or otherwise. The fact of the matter is it’s human nature to want to buckle down and take sides. If the right or left could settle down and talk we just might get something done about gun control and alot of other issues.
@Brian – I completely agree with you on the first part of your post. The media needs to get back to broadcasting the news, not making it, not spinning it, not directing it.
As for the second part, I don’t follow your logic in your comparison between your .357 and the Bushmaster .223. Other have I think tried to counter what THEY believed you logic was, but clearly haven’t hit on it, and we’re less then polite about it in some cases.
What part of the Bushmaster do you feel shouldn’t be available to the public?
Is it the .223 Remington round? The capability to use “high capacity” magazines? Something else?
The problem is that this isn’t one problem and there isn’t one fix. Human beings want to reduce issues to sound bites naturally because we like simplicity. It’s the intellectual and emotional equivalent to water always flowing down hill. But problems like this aren’t simple and we’re not doing ourselves any favors by pretending it is. Gun control should be on the table, mental health should be on the table, failure of social infrastructure (families, churches, clubs, whatever) should be on the table, media now being a form of entertainment instead of a source of facts should be on the table. I’m sure there’s plenty more.
I have fired a variety of guns in my life, target shooting. I don’t own a firearm and I’ve never been completely comfortable around them. If the government did ban all guns it really wouldn’t effect me any. Having said that I still find myself against gun control. People who want a ban on these weapons say that they will reduce body counts when shootings like this happen. That’s just not acceptable to me. I don’t want a lower body count. I want this stopped in the first place. What’s to stop a postal nut from using a machete, a bomb or even a vehicle to run down students? I also think people’s perceptions are messed up sometimes. In the United States 1,560 children died from abuse and neglect in 2010. Does the media cover that? They wont hype it up unless they would have all died at once. I’m not downplaying this recent shooting. I’m a father myself and I’m as heartbroken and sickened by this as anyone else. But every time a tragedy like this happens people act like there’s some magic solution that can prevent the next one. There isn’t. These people can’t be weeded out and stopped. I’m all for an open discussion and even think if further gun regulation can help than so be it. I’m just very leery when people talk about outright banning certain types of guns. I just don’t think it’s going to do anything to prevent these crimes.
I say we all take a deep breath and consider the right to arm bears. Then the hunting enthusiasts will have more of a challenge, but only in theory. Because, you see, arming bears will not make them any more dangerous. And disarming an emotionally/mentally unbalanced person won’t render them less deadly. They’ll still be batfuck. Keep in mind these so-called inhuman acts are, in fact, uniquely human, and are not a recent development.
Brian,
This post is the reason why I see you as more than a writer. The fact of the matter is there will always be evil in this world and it’s up to good men and women to stop it. Instead of writing about gun control, and who is right and wrong and why. I choose not to learn the killers name but instead remember the children and the hero’s of this tragedy that saved the lives of children. This young teacher named Victoria, who hid the kids in cabinets in her classroom and told the killer that her kids were in gym class. She died a hero. With that being said, why you are driving with your grandmother 12 hours to spend the holidays with her; on all the social media websites I shared a story of a Christmas hero in my life. I don’t know if I should share it here. So I will ask permission before I post it. But I think the real problem is that we tend to immortalize the villains and we forget about the heroes.
Randy K: Fair enough, sir. Again, those were two hurried pieces written via Twitter and FB (which don’t exactly lend themselves to lengthier essays) so yeah, let me see if I can expand a bit before hitting the road again.
As a gun owner, as a frequent target shooting enthusiast, as a former hunter, as a former military member, as a Libertarian, as an American, and as a father — I think we should talk about what types of weapons are available to the civilian populace (and what’s available to our law enforcement professionals, as well).
The 2nd Amendment guarantees us the right to bear arms. I would not change that. But maybe we as a nation need to put rhetoric and arguing (from both the Left and the Right) aside and TALK about which arms we’re bearing. Does it give us the right to bear a rocket launcher. A mounted fifty cal on or Volkswagen. A high capacity magazine. A bolt action 30.06. My Kimber 1911. A revolver. Etc.
Maybe we need to TALK about whether or not semi-automatics are still available for sale going forward, or who they are available to sale for. Maybe we need to TALK about the capacity of magazines. You can stop an armed intruder with six well-placed groupings from a revolver just as effectively as you can with, say, 30 rounds from another weapon. Maybe we need to TALK about whether weapons that are, quite simply, designed to fire a greater number of rounds and wound or kill a greater number of people, should be so easily or readily available.
I’m not talking about repealing the 2nd Amendment. I’m not talking about sending Feds around to seize the guns of law-abiding people. I’m talking about us all TALKING about the possibility — going forward — of confining weapons designed more for warfare to the field of warfare, rather than the field of personal protection or law enforcement.
I talking about us TALKING about how mental illness is perceived in this country, and who has access to care, and who doesn’t, and the stigmas that surround it. I’m talking about TALKING about what parents, guardians, teachers, etc can legally do right now is they suspect a mentally ill family member is leaning in this direction. The signs and indicators.
I’m talking about us TALKING about enforcing the gun laws we already have on the books. About examining our qualifications and applications processes. About educating current gun owners who might not be as responsible as some of the rest of us, and perhaps creating penalties for those who aren’t. And likewise educating those who think a semi-automatic is the same thing as a machine gun, or that revolvers have clips, or that all firearms, regardless of capacity or design, should be banned.
In short, I’m talking about us TALKING. I think we need to talk. And I don’t think they’re letting us talk. I’m saying let’s get together and talk about this shit, without attacking each other, without accusing each other of being fascists or socialists or Left Wingers or Right Wingers or NWO apologists or secret agents for the Bilderbergers. Let’s be respectful of each others opinions and see if we can’t find some middle ground.
Evil will always exist. Bad things will always happen. But incidents like this are increasing, and we need to talk about making it harder for them to happen. That doesn’t mean enacting Draconian gun control laws or further expanding the absolutely un-American Patriot Act. But it does mean we need to examine whether or not a 20-year old mentally ill kid should have had the ability to take a Sig, a Glock, and a rifle to an elementary school and shoot nearly 30 other kids. No, we don’t know all the facts. Yes, it’s starting to sound like these were his mother’s guns. Maybe she was responsible and had them locked up. Maybe she was irresponsible and had them lying on the kitchen table. But regardless, it’s time we had a discussion. That’s all I’m saying. I’m saying let’s talk, let’s hear each others side, and let’s come up with some ideas and possible solutions.
Do I believe that more than 200 years later, the Second Amendment is important and we may still need to defend ourselves against a tyrannical government one day. Yes. Yes I do. Absolutely. But I don’t know how a semi-auto or an extended magazine will protect us against a drone, or an Internet kill switch, or crushing taxes, or crippling unemployment, or the Patriot Act, or a slashed credit rating, or a mainstream media propaganda arm. The only things that will protect us against that are TALKING, DISCUSSION, MUTUAL RESPECT, and understanding that we are ALL Americans, regardless of our political or religious creed, sexual orientation or skin color, etc. and then finding common ground and taking a stand together. And more and more, the talk, discussion, mutual respect, and nationalism is being smothered and eradicated by those who want to control us. And well-meaning Americans then shout Left and Right platitudes at each other, rather than talking about their different opinions to each other and then finding common ground.
Hope that answers your question. Apologies if it is still confusing or rambles. It’s 7am and I’m tired and literally woke up and before even getting coffee, I attempted to answer your question. But thanks for asking it, and thanks for being respectful of my opinion and my right to express it, as I am of yours (and let’s both be thankful that we both still live in a country where we *can* express those opinions. Because I think we both realize places like that are starting to disappear).
Rob O’Neal: I see your responses to Lincoln Crisler, etc. in the queue. I’m not approving those comments. If you can’t participate in this discussion without attacking or being abusive of the other commentors, then there are plenty of other places on the internet where you can go shout at people. If you’d like to try again here, without being abusive of others whom you might not agree with, I’ll be happy to reconsider. While we certainly value your input and thoughts, I ask that you express them with the same respect you’d want for yourself.
Brian: From the first comment to your most recent, lengthy, extremely well-written reply, I 1000% agree with you and applaud you for taking the time out of your busy weekend to spend time here discussing this heated topic. Obviously, opinions vary. I posted similar thoughts on another forum (nowhere near as eloquent) and the majority of opinions varied but seemed to fall onto the “guns are bad, we need more gun control laws” side of things…and even a few from outside the US bashing this country, which alternately makes me pissed off and sad. Not one mention, though, of the problem of mental illness and lack of treatment to some of those poor souls. A bandaid solution isn’t going to make this type of real-life horror go away, or prevent it from happening again.
What you have to consider in this latest incident is nothing, absolutely nothing, short of a cop posted at the school would have stopped this from occuring. The guns were legally owned. Even if they were secured, he killed the owner, so he could have taken the key post killing, or sat around prying at or drilling on the safe afterwards. He could have taken the worst low capacity guns ever to the school, stood in a classrom doorway and shot kids one by one reloading each time, they were kids, they weren’t going anywhere to get away. Him shooting 12 kids with two 6 shooters would have been no less tragic than 20. Kids. Ban guns, and some day it will be a cops kid who does it, or someone with a cache of illegal guns. You can’t legislate crazy suicidal people because you can’t predict when they will go crazy and snap, and penalties don’t matter to them. Better question to ask yourself, why can america put trillions into overseas wars, but we can’t put a cop in every school. Think of the tragedies a cop in a school could stop, and how growing up with one near by in a friendly capacity would make it so kids first experiences with the police wouldn’t be getting arrested, lotta good will to be had. Per what I understand, he constitution extended the right to bear arms as a measure of protection against the government itself, because they had just used such arms to get out from another opressive government. They didn’t build in limits on kinds of kinds of guns because I think it may have occured to them that as time passes, governments will get more powerful, and the means to protect onself from them would need to. Imagine yourself an enthusiast of something, an extremely responsible enthusiast, who all of a sudden had everyone wanting what they enjoyed outlawed due to something that occured which wouldn’t have been prevented by the very outlawing they are calling for. Esp given that its the constitution which allows it in the first place. You might get a little upset and argue from an extreme position, given everyone else arguing from the same. One might also consider the slippery slope arguements to be made because some won’t stop at certain kinds of guns, they want all guns, others want more than guns, they want movies, video games, and books with guns in em. Yeah you don’t want all guns, video games and books, you just want 30 round mag semi auto rifles, because you are sensible, but you aren’t everyone who has been whipped into a frenzy by the news, who want a return to the “good old days” of the 50s or 60s, or everyone to live on some kinds of peacenik hippe commune where everything is peaceful all the time… Outrageous examples yep, but some, well a lot won’t stop at sensible, and people who don’t want to lose their constitution granted rights for doing nothing wrong have to argue back against additional laws when things like this happen (which laws wouldn’t have prevented) not because they remotely in any way want things like what happened to be possible to occur, but because they did nothing wrong. There’s a lot of vets who need employment, station one at each school, things like what occuered don’t happen, or are lessened when they do. The return on what it costs could easily be covered by the money we send to some foreign country. Btw I don’t even own a gun, so I’m not arguing some extreme right position for my own benefit
I love the example you used here and there are many, MANY stories just like that. Whether people like it or not, even if there are stricter gun laws, bad people will always have guns. The fully automatic weapons that gangs use are perfectly legal right? No, no there not. And the guns used in this shooting and the one at the mall shooting were all stolen from their original owner. they will always find a way. We as citizens need to defend ourselves. If one of those teachers had a concealed carry license, was allowed to have it in school, and used it on the shooter. you think all those kids wouldve died? And even if you do whether you like it or not they wouldve had a better chance. Bottom line here is good people need guns because bad people will always have guns. I do appologize about the grammer level but I’m trying to keep it simple because i want everyone to be able to understand what i wrote or typed lol.
Like someone else mentioned above, I am a teacher. We practice lock down drills multiple times throught the year. Unfortunately, if a mentally unstable individual wanted to break into a school there would be very little that could be done to actually stop him/her. This is a frightening thought–especially compounded with the recent events and the fact that I have two little ones going to school. Precautions have been taken by most schools to keep all children safe. I do not believe that the government has any right to take away anyone’s right to own guns; however, unless you are currently serving in the military or as a police officer you do not have any reason to own a tactical firearm comparable to the one used in Friday’s atrocity. Shotguns, rifles, handguns? Absolutely, but a semi-automatic weapon in the hands of a civilian? Without a doubt, no.
Thanks for posting this Brian.
Just saw this and figured I’d share it…
http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspoTht.ca/2012/12/thinking-unthinkable.html?m=1&buffer_share=8fc69&utm_source=buffer
Sorry other link didn’t work…
http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.ca/2012/12/thinking-unthinkable.html?m=1
Such a horrible tragedy that rips my heart out and I find it difficult to watch any news broadcast of this event. Not because of the terrible nature of the incident (which is, in itself, almost impossible to stomach) but because of the media’s relentless focus of the victims and families. This was a public tragedy but I believe grief, if given a choice, should be a private matter. A camera shoved in your face registering your every emotion as realize your world has just come undone seems …well, wrong. Such a sad, sad day and I know the networks have their job to do, but I do hope they give these families some space and peace.
well, up here in Canada; these things don’t happen with as much frequency, though they do happen (i.e. Taber Alberta 2000). While I don’t see strict gun control as being overly helpful (so many ways to illegally get guns) I do see access to proper health care, social assistance and mental health care as vital. These are things that Canada has done pretty well at and as I have experienced first hand, there are a lot of resources to help those who are tipping over the edge. I have worked crisis intervention here in Alberta and even here in Edmonton there are at least twenty no-fee services that would be able to identify dangerous mental illness before it got to that point. Of course, if somone doesn’t want help, what do you do? This happens, but our culture up here is increasingly understanding of mental illness despite bumps on the road. I can’t speak to America that way. As far as guns go, I personally don’t know a single non-military or police person who owns anything more than a rifle. They just don’t want them. I grew up in a rural setting and no one was concerned about break-ins and none have ever happened in my area. No opinion, just facts.
What I do know is that Edmonton leads Canada in homicides quite often. Criminals kill each other and those that get in their way with guns that are nearly always illegally obtained. This kind of crime is different than a mass murder and is nearly always drug or gang related or rarely; a crime of passion.
Oddly, perhaps the most heinous crime in our recent history was done completly gun-free. A man went suddenly berzerk on a Greyhound bus and decapitated a fellow passenger, parading the head around and eating parts of it. This was accomplished with a knife. The man was found to be quite mentally ill and untreated. The mental health community was swarmed with criticism as to why this man fell through the cracks.
So, heinous crimes happen without guns and even in a country like Canada, shit like this does happen from time to time.
Answers? Better access to mental health care and less stigma? Heartily Yes! Gun control tightening? Make it harder to get a gun legally, have a mandatory psych evaluation? Maybe, though that hardly cracks the surface of the problem of illegal weapons. Round up guns (would have to be legally obtained ones since that’s all that could be found)? Leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Start with mental health care and get to the root of some problems and go from there.
With my two cents, I am a grateful Canadian
One problem I see that could be fixed, say what you mean. I heard the term “gun control” on 3 networks this morning in less that 1 minute. Everyone says “Gun Control” but they mean very different things to different people. Some want better laws, some want less powerful weapons in the hands of the public, some want better backgrouns checks, some want to ban all weapons and assume the world will turn into the next garden of eden, and a lot of people are yelling gun control out of anger and pain and don’t have a clue what they really want. They just want someone to try to fix it.
In my state, you have to have a background check to get a gun permit. Not all states even do that small thing. To me, I would think that could be one step forward. What if we suggest that all states should do a background check when people get a permit or buy a weapon. It seems like a good place to start. It doesn’t stop me from carrying my Kimber 1911. It doesn’t end my right to protect myself. It is not the answer to all of the problems, it is not the end of anyone’s rights, it is not what I would demand, it simply seems like something like that would be a good starting point to begin a conversation. It could be one step in a better direction. Maybe if the powers that be could start on one idea and move forward, it would help them learn how to work together again. We don’t have the power to teleport. We move by taking steps. I don’t expect an instant fix but is it too much to hope that people elected to do a job could stop standing still and yelling at one another and help their country by taking one step forward?
“I do not believe that the government has any right to take away anyone’s right to own guns; however, unless you are currently serving in the military or as a police officer you do not have any reason to own “… proceeds to explain what guns that people should be able to own, and what ones no one has business owning, and would entertain the government preventing people from owning..
Respectfully which is it?
Big Black scary guns, should be outlawed, but guns which shoot the came caliber of bullets or worse which have wooden stocks should be allowed, semi automatic hand guns with 10 round clips should be outlawed, but a 357 revolver which holds 6 rounds, and can be reloaded with a speed loader should be banned, nothing which holds more than 3 rounds should be allowed, or only bolt action rifles should be allowed?
Someone wants to kill 10 people really quick, it won’t matter if they have a semi auto handgun with a 10 round clip, or 2 six-shooters in thier belt, both will shoot as fast as you can pull the trigger. There are hunting rifles which can shoot the same caliber or worse of bullets as more military looking rifles, and it doesn’t take a terribly long time to reload a 3/4/5/6 round clip.
I’m not advocating that people own automatic weapons without going through the crazy amount of paperwork and licensing that it takes to own such a device, but there’s a million lines to be drawn, and no one is clear about any of them.
The news is currently bombarding people with constant coverage of a horror which happend because they know people who mean well will watch all day long (in an effort to sell more activia yogurt and nexium commercials for people with stomach acid) and alot of well meaning people right now in reaction to the tragedy are lining up on the side of either pull all guns, or ban certain kinds of scary looking guns, which wouldn’t have changed what happened, and politicians looking to make a name for themselves will capitolize on it, and pass bizzaro laws which really aren’t well thought through, and not really change anything.
If any of the politicians really wanted to do anything about this, they’d be introducing laws to get a cop in each school, but because that doesn’t make anyone money for someone the way that airport scanners and security did, you don’t see a cop in every school. It’s sad that it seems more lives, money, and effort were put towards freeing the people of Iraq, than insuring the safety of kids in schools.
Write a letter to your politician about that. There’s the answer to legal, illegal, and anything inbetween guns, and the nutjobs who will do with them as they please, with no regards to old or new laws what-so-ever.
It’s okay for politicians to have police escorts everywhere they go, why not one sitting at the only open entrance to every school. I get felt up to get on a plane with a locked cockpit, where if I pull any stunts, I will only end up getting myself killed in the process, why isn’t there a cop at the front door of every school.
This is sadly playing out like what happens every time a pit-bull hurts kills someone, ban the pitbulls, think of the children, etc, etc, when people with just as dangerous of dogs are fine. Pitbulls get banned, thugs buy rotwielers, or german shepards, or get pilbulls “illegally” and nothing changes. The intention of the bans is fine and well, by well meaning people, but works just about as good as banning drugs has.
I agree with what you said, nice post and you seem to be a responsible gun owner as are most American gun owners our I’m sure are too but along with the news media that you mention you did not mention the NRA who have start this conversation but you first have to get come down off there high horse get of this “if everyone had a gun there wouldn’t be any violence” how can you make a statement like that evrytime something like this happen, that’s the NRA solution to all these shooting. It has to start with them if they can’t man up they should keep your mouths shut.
@Brain – I came in from a link on a friend of mine’s FB page. All I have to work off is this post, I haven’t seen your FB post and I don’t do twitter, so everything I have to work with is right here.
You’ve picked up and fired a fire arm which is all I need to know about any credentials you have as far as firearms, too many people who want limit access have never fired a weapon, so on that front you’re a head of a lot of people.
Most of what you’ve said is that we need to TALK about a lot of different subjects, and I agree with you. I think we need to talk a LOT MORE. The key is talking about the things that will make the most difference.
For example, you talk about rocket launchers… why? Wouldn’t you agree that is a straw man? They’re already illegal for private citizens to own, are they not? As for fully automatic firearms, while legal to own, it isn’t as easy as walking to Wal-Mart picking one out then taking it home. It Is very difficult and expensive to get the proper tax stamps and licenses, not to mention the constitutional rights that are given up to own them. These are already well established laws and case law. Also, in the last 20 years how many crimes were committed by legally owned automatic weapons? My point is, is it useful to talk about rocket launchers and automatic weapons?
I agree with you that education is KEY, education about firearms and education about mental illness. I spoke with a friend of a friend once, who grew up in South Africa, but now lived in the States. I can’t say for sure how long she’d lived here, but a few years at least, I suspect more than 10 years. She thought if someone wanted they could walk into a Wal-Mart and buy an automatic AK-47 with 100 round magazine for $100. I had to explain to her that was far from the case.
You also made a statement that I think may help me understand your point of view better if you expanded what you meant. You said “…confining weapons designed more for warfare to the field of warfare…”. Can you be a bit more specific about what defines a weapon designed for warfare? That was really what I was getting at in my earlier questions, but you left unanswered. You mentioned high capacity magazines, which generally I agree have little practical use in civilian life, but I have to assume there is more.
There is no need to thank me for being respectful, it’s just common courtesy. I think more than anything this nation is missing is just basic respect for others.
I think in the end we’ll agree to disagree, but I hope to learn something about your views, and I hope I can teach you something about mine.
Just a questions I’d like to ask everyone; Were you too free before 9/11?
Remember this, when they come for your freedom, they’re gonna say that it’s to save the children, to protect the innocent, and that all good, decent, law abiding people agree with them.
OK, now that I got my obligatory libertarian statement in, I’d like to muddy the waters a bit.
To preface, I am not saying that violent video games cause these things. What I am saying is that constant immersion in in computers does do something. What the long term effects are-we don’t truly know. I know that people are now looking at “popcorn brain” and obesity from sitting in front of a bank of computer screens all day, but what else is it doing?
I work at a computer company. I’m that guy you call when the network goes down or the database blows a gasket. I know what I’m talking about. I’m not a luddite, but as an experiment, try going cold turkey. See what happens. It’s as hard as quitting smoking.That tells me that we are dealing with a kind of interactive stimulus that is far more powerful and likely less the benign panacea than we think it is.
I think it’s changing us, and I think it’s making us crazy. I’m not talking about banning computers. I’m talking about society stepping back an evaluating whether it’s really such a good thing to be plugged in 24/7.
Brian thanks so much for your post and responses. I think you have it spot on but it is always great to see a variety of viewpoints. It is certainly not an easy issue but dialogue is what is needed. I tend to be pessimistic about politicians in this current environment rising above partisan talking points but it is what is needed. One can always dream. Thanks again.
http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/christophermajka/2012/12/death-innocents-murder-and-guns-usa
8 firearms related deaths in the UK.
10,728 in the USA.
We have roughly a 5th of your population so let’s correct the scale.
(done roughly and quickly)
10,728 to 40
or
268 to 1
The USA has 268 times more deaths due to firearms.
You don’t think that maybe you might need gun control?
If you were to argue the need for a gun when outside of a town -bears/wolves/bigcats etc – then I could fully understand, and Brian’s example, where he lives in a rural area, again I could understand, but in a populated area?
I must be missing something. I just don’t understand the gun obsession.
Bill…I have had those same thoughts for quite some time and I think there is some merit to your theory. I’m on my computer all day long for work and find it hard to not get on at night to “surf” which is another word for doing nothing. I look around at work and co-workers are posting to each other on facebook and they sit right next to each other…it’s getting nuts. You can’t walk down the street now without seeing someone looking down at a screen of some sort. It’s got to change you…everyone…I’m at the age(48) that I remember before the internet /cells and after and I’ll take before If I could really go back without being left behind (You need it to keep a job these days).
What does this have to do with anything? It all leads to a world of social outcasts./ misfits..people who only feel connected unless connected…who lack social skills, who are akward with person to person contact. Sounds familiar? Sure this kid was diagnosed with a”Disorder”, Autism I believe, but that diagnosis is thrown around like candy these days. Back when I was in school that could would have been the geek, the quiet one, the nerd…now there is a name and it’s all let’s stop mental illness talk. These kids who might have grown out of it in the past or matured only hide in the internet world now, never grow, only sit there and stare at a screen until they either explode in rage after playing constant violent games or just fade away into whatever fantasy he or she has created in their head. I don’t think automatic weapons are needed but do think you should be able to own a hunting rifle or hand gun (with compete checks)…having said that I do think in the long run..maybe 10 to 20 years the number one detroyer of life as we know it will not be guns it will be technology. The future generations are fully wired and it’s all they will have ever known..a scary thought…remember those days playing outdoors with the neighborhood kids? They won’t…saw a commerical the other day about apps for the iphone with a parent letting her five year old play games on it…sure he might grow up to be a smart kid but social skills / dealing with real people? No, my friends..fear the techology not the guns. And yes Brian you can use this for a story idea.lol
Hello folks–I’m a little late to the conversation here. I stop by this page mostly for updates on Brian Keene’s novels, but felt like saying something on this one. I agree with Brian and some of the points Martin was making; I think we really need to look at specifics and talk intelligently. Successful gun management and gun laws will come from attention to detail. I hunt with a Marlin .270 bolt action rifle. I have to slide the bolt for every shot and it can only hold four shots in the magazine and one in the chamber if I choose, though I usually don’t because I don’t like to walk with a shell chambered for safety’s sake. My father and my buddy both hunt with .44 magnum semi-automatic rifles. This is where I think the terminology gets a little slippery–their rifles fire each time they pull the trigger. But they only have five shots in the magazine, and those come from an internal clip that takes time to hand-load. So it seems to me that the number of bullets and the method of reloading is very important when considering the danger level of a firearm, at least as much as semi-automatic versus bolt action or a revolver goes.
I think that if we were to talk about these specifics I would support the idea that a shooter with a hand loading semi-automatic is significantly less dangerous than someone with a snap-in clip. I suppose one could buy a set of internal clips for the deer rifles I mentioned, but generally speaking, they aren’t set up that way. In a crime of opportunity, one won’t stumble onto or steal a .44 with several ‘clips’. And so, anyone who has ever been in the most basic of brawls knows it only takes a fews seconds to tackle someone or bludgeon them if you’re willing to get into it and get it done. Particularly if your adversary is busy trying to slide bullets into a magazine one at a time.
So in this talking that Brian has proposed, a first step would be agreeing to the definitions of terms, specifically which types of action, loading methods and number of rounds are fair and safe. Incidentally, I would say a four or five shot semi-automatic does serve a purpose in deer hunting as you can get that second shot off and it can be the difference between wounding and animal and being able to eat it.
Thanks again to Brian and others here for beginning the kind of conversation he’s proposing.